when was cialis launched viagra fraudster cialis hard on pfizer viagra samples free samples of viagra in canada viagra mtab soft cialis mastercard can you die from taking viagra dose of viagra for men is there really generic viagra viagra denmark levitra by mail order premature orgasm with viagra 36 hour cialis commercial what dosage viagra should i take buy cheao cgeap kamagra uk viagra comprar levitra en madrid levitra 100 mg bayer 30 tablet equipement sp cialis buy viagra uae viagra tucson lil wayne viagra buy cialis for cheap indigestion with viagra cialis pbs viagra per le donne 2011 women taking viagra side effects check generic order pay viagra how much costs viagra in india young guy taking viagra long-term effects of viagra usage does cialis make you harder buy viagra china viagra ingredients pastilla china viagra viagra lubricant cara kerja viagra airport security viagra what is the average age of men taking viagra viagra and testim original viagra use viagra sold in the usa viagra now online the viagra pill cialis lilly 10 mg where can i find cialis cialis overnight shipment viagra hipertension arterial vigrx plus vs viagra what is levitra professional what causes viagra not to work took too much viagra is it hard to get a viagra prescription what is viagra tablet correct dose of cialis viagra and beer good screw with viagra href cialis what foods work like viagra side effects of viagra on women cialis and high blood pressure medicine best dose viagra cialis bathtub commercial review of generic levitra giving cialis to wife levitra and alcohol use viagra take offs say get viagra prescription can cialis be split video viagra effect refractory period viagra after levitra levitra commercial song does viagra prolong intercourse viagra sales growth buy buy cheap cheap levitra levitra sildenafil kamagra viagra san francisco flomax cialis c'est quoi un viagra alternativa al viagra senza ricetta medicine viagra wix detroit viagra efectos del viagra en mujeres can u mix viagra with alcohol prix cialis pharmacie grenoble generic-viagra review of viagra can viagra work for premature ejaculation viagra hot flush dose for viagra cheap viagra samples is there anything over the counter that works like viagra websites to buy viagra brand levitra canada kamagra jelly australia viagra veny nelkul viagra k find search pages edinburgh overnight viagra delivery prednisolone and viagra herbal cialis alternatives viagra and woman quanto custa o viagra em portugal safest place to order viagra online purchase cialis from canada real men don't need viagra order viagra from thailand viagra erections buy viagra gauteng what company owns viagra buy viagra in pune buy free viagra on internet come comprare cialis viagra 25 mg side effects comprar cialis online no brasil buy viagra answers cialis face flushing viagra 25 mg forum the cost of cialis taking two viagra once sex and the city samantha takes viagra real cialis without a prescription k tino viagra venta de cialis en santiago cialis spc how long does one viagra last viagra mod de administrare viagra lavetra cialis viagra true stories can you take cialis with beta blockers viagra trial samples viagra aurochem canadian drugstore viagra where to get viagra prescription pfizer viagra buy online no prescription safe generic viagra india i need viagra now cialis leg ache levitra generique forum puerto rico viagra viagra mg strength acquistare viagra farmacia viagra price india 2010 cialis 5mg cena levitra yahoo branded viagra vs. generic viagra buy cialis 32 wal-mart viagra price viagra accidental discovery levitra fertility whats the side effects of viagra buring levitra online cialis schedule drug online viagra mexico venta de cialis en argentina viagra plane cheapest cialis on the internet natural herbs like viagra generic viagra advanced canada viagra perth australia viagra end of patent taking viagra into australia lisinopril and viagra interactions viagra side affects cialis et hypertension viagra sans ordonnance pharmacie viagra generika rezeptfrei bestellen precio del viagra mexico buy viagra buy cheap viagra index like viagra ebay levitra sweden cialis hiv meds levitra loss of vision buy viagra canada online no prescription buy viagra in russia viagra off patent 2012 generic viagra vs brand viagra visual viagra pictures precio de viagra en farmacia prolonged use of viagra levitra cost rite aide buy levitra professional online buy viagra online legally where buy viagra in canada cialis alzheimer cialis in ontario combitic global viagra cialis precio farmacia guadalajara herbal viagra ireland african viagra nigeria canadian online pharmacy cialis buy cialis without viagra great for group sex buy viagra in belfast levitra 5 mg compresse get viagra prescription canada cheapest pharmacy for cialis cialis without erectile dysfunction quel viagra acheter viagra introduced buy viagra onlinr viagra prescription drug australia venta de viagra en argentina does viagra do anything to women do you need a prescription for levitra viagra frau wirkung cialis gynecomastia cialis reimport buy viagra online org uk viagra original sale funciona el cialis generico cialis kick in subaction showcomments viagra start from online kamagra plus uk viagra kaufen ohne rezept forum levitra kopen donde comprar viagra generico where can i buy viagra tablets cialis price check viagra purchased with mastercard marijuana with cialis generic levitra test viagra who makes it cialis 20mg schweiz generic viagra meltabs drug how to take kamagra oral jelly viagra generico legale tesco viagra prices is cialis good for young men viagra doesnt work for me buy cheap cialis on line overdose on cialis viagra usage and results cialis . buy viagra with discount kamagra special offer viagra online romania viagra urine test viagra black market price substitute of viagra in homeopathy buy cialis online with no prescription sex viagra xanax viagra molecular formula your source for cialis information cialis generika rezeptfrei kaufen viagra domaine public bayanlara viagra viagra available in kolkata generic viagra sale online canada viagra for women perscription cialis pills like cialis viagra pay maxman herbal viagra expired viagra side effects what is the best natural viagra levitra diabetes generic online viagra kamagra fast scam levitra compresse importing cialis viagra and prostate problems over the counter alternative to cialis levitra kontraindikacije viagra essential tremor price check cialis levitra orodispersible uk how long does it take for viagra to kick in wrigley chewing gum viagra 2012 pfizer viagra 100mg tablets kamagra central review viagra caseiro viva viagra wav cialis super active europe se puede comprar viagra sin receta en argentina viagra sell by date dosages levitra order viagra twitter viagra 25mg prix zinc viagra buy cialis vancouver we to buy viagra online nombre generico del viagra does 5mg of cialis work take viagra anally is buying viagra from canada legal is generic viagra safe to take long does cialis last who sells levitra man taking viagra video viagra rubbish viagra 18 year old kamagra online usa viagra in leicester viagra and atenolol generic cialis shipped from canada ed viagra cialis reflux best online to buy cialis over dose viagra cost of viagra nz viagra spam from my email can you take kamagra through customs viagra flavored ice cream viagra commercial script generic cialis pay pal generic cialis pills testimonials valium with viagra canadian pharmacy cialis tadalafil lowest cost generic viagra pharmacy prices for cialis viagra rush how should you take viagra do insurance companies pay for viagra lithium and viagra viagra duracion del efecto cialis brand canada harga viagra asli pela viagra dominicana medical name for viagra buy levitra from india viagra tablet sizes safe way to buy viagra what is cialis and generic cialis cialis prix au maroc cialis too expensive viagra lowest priced story of viagra discovery cialis alchohol generic cialis pills dk legitimate online pharmacy cialis tom kaulitz viagra overdose what happens if you take viagra and you don't need it cialis lek za potenciju date viagra goes generic cialis moins cher en pharmacie female take viagra free herbal viagra uk where did viagra come from kosten viagra 50 mg levitra 10mg pas cher como conseguir viagra en argentina viagra canada levitra presentation does viagra work the first time does cialis make u last longer viagra buy shops viagra y sus efectos viagra tablet uk viagra industry sales generic cialis by phone viagra topical cialis store in korea viagra blood pressure medicine viagra men sale comprare cialis acquisto cialis generico cialis prices in ireland inhaled viagra quando viagra generico levitra ppt cialis st cialis with a prescription cialis caducado viagra online without prescription uk buy viagra tanzania stop stop stop viagra mp3 buying viagra phuket buy cialis los angeles viagra on sale tesco stores sell viagra cheapest generic levitra buy viagra 100mg uk can cialis get you high top internet cialis web sites no online order prescription viagra comment bander sans viagra online viagra sales australia cialis roger clemens viagra viagra ingredients found cialis cheapest uk order kamagra jelly generic viagra sale on line viagra or other substitute buying cialis safely online using viagra for fun buy viagra southampton viagra generic pharmacy iframe cheap viagra safe found viagra in husband generic viagra verses brand viagra viagra female orgasm viagra and metoprolol buying viagra in phuket viagra cebu levitra store blood pressure and cialis purchase viagra without rx effect of viagra on females blue vision from viagra onde comprar viagra em portugal when will viagra be available generically in the us supplements that work like viagra levitra for pe 2 viagra pills alternatives for viagra over the counter cheapest genuine cialis viagra works against psichological problems is viagra illegal in dubai mechanism action of viagra how much does prescription viagra cost kamagra mee op reis cheap cialis new zealand alternative for viagra australia walmart viagra pharmacy prices mua viagra o ha noi is it safe to use viagra at a young age cialis australian customs kamagra deutschland apotheke history of viagra development is there something like viagra for women free sample packs of viagra where to get free viagra samples viagra gel side effects can u buy viagra at walgreens generic viagra with international shipping can i use viagra every day low dose levitra side effects of kamagra tablets viagra gone wrong funny pic buy cialis 5mg online cialis patent expire date goedkoop cialis kopen levitra canada pharmacy online natural viagra remedies how viagra woirks cost of cialis in nz will viagra help with performance anxiety videos of boners with viagra viagra per donne effetti buy viagra for women in india viagra take with food viagra adelaide buy how does viagra work in women kamagra oral jelly 20mg cialis and us online pharmacy generic brand viagra viagra from america cialis funziona davvero what happens when you take a viagra can you buy viagra in melbourne viagra apotheke can you drink with viagra can i split a viagra pill viagra nyship positive and negative effects of viagra can you take viagra with heart problems side effects from levitra comprare cialis in india viagra terbutaline sirm viagra cobra 125 name of generic cialis best place to buy levitra viagra generico efectos secundarios take viagra with water viagra treatment for pulmonary hypertension coupons viagra printable how long does kamagra last viagra 25 mg rezeptfrei cheap viagra 150 mg how to remove viagra official site cialis via internet male herbal viagra what would happen if a woman took a viagra pill omg viagra viagra in enema how safe is viagra similar to viagra over the counter gabapentin and viagra viagra liquor viagra old effects of pill drawbacks of viagra natural viagra supplement kamagra tablete za potenciju generic viagra walgreens costco price for cialis efectos del viagra en el organismo cheap wholesale viagra cialis generic brand cialis in der schweiz kaufen what is an alternative to viagra levitra substitutes reviews cialis 24 hour cialis cialis generic viagra cialis 20 mg paypal how to get viagra in germany generic viagra securetabs face turns red after viagra inexpensive viagra canada viagra packaging viagra for men effects viagra peanut butter viagra chemical properties wie schnell wirkt viagra buy viagra cebu viagra cheap online uk canada from generic viagra real viagra without prescriptions buy real cialis uk generic viagra mastercard viagra casero natural generic cialis discreet buy buy viagra tablets india kamagra pastillas can you drink and take viagra how long does viagra make you last viagra price history do you need a prescription for viagra in south africa is mail order viagra safe discover viagra viagra onlie what will happen if a woman takes cialis viagra available in dubai cialis side effects uk cialis endurance sports kamagra thailand kaufen nombres del viagra what foods act like viagra viagra in deutschland rezeptfrei how long can you keep viagra what do the cialis commercials mean precio viagra en andorra cialis 5 mg costo viagra eczema cialis 20mg achat what happens if you take viagra at a young age viagra falls canada best male viagra viagra features cialis tabletten preis best price viagra 25mg como comprar viagra en farmacia sin receta brain viagra pill should i take half a viagra viagra multiple intercourse what happens if you take more than one viagra how soon does viagra work after i take it where to purchase viagra in india chinese gold viagra vision loss and viagra can i take kamagra on a plane natural forms of viagra viagra commercial bob how safe is cialis cialis 5mg daily reviews long term side effects cialis cialis cheap uk energy viagra oral sex with viagra does cialis have a taste brandname cialis online australia generic cialis results how often can i take 20mg cialis cialis generico opinioni is it safe to buy cialis online cialis generic canada online levitra 10mg side effects viagra online us news viagra bob is happy commercial does viagra increase length tons of viagra viagra side effects on eyes viagra valor cialis drug wiki can you buy viagra over the counter in bangkok viagra and other how long cialis take effect cialis in usa rezeptfrei kaufen cialis express delivery australia viagra camaro commercial viagra super activity cheap viagra gold kamagra price in india is viagra habit forming lanjin viagra levitra en mexico watermelon rinds viagra viagra i doser download what is cialis 20mg cialis en europe grapefruit viagra warning how does a viagra pill look like quais os efeitos colaterais do viagra online prescription for levitra us cialis sample dosage acheter du viagra en espagne levitra citalopram generica cialis how much is viagra in south africa is buying viagra online legal in australia beli viagra di malaysia canadian viagra order uk viagra kamagra generic cialis-dapoxetine symptoms of viagra overdose cialis 5 mg schweiz what happens to a woman if she takes viagra kamagra oral jelly vol.3 buy viagra ship overnight posologia del viagra kamagra kamagra uk black woman in cialis commercial viagra expectations generic viagra made in usa viagra helps heart muscle dystrophy cialis generico farmacia viagra vaistine wild viagra uk viagra supplier us pharmacy how do i get my doctor to prescribe me viagra viagra culture lyrics best way to make viagra work do you need a prescription to buy viagra in canada contraindicaciones de tomar viagra viagra and working out viagra versand aus deutschland can you buy viagra boots mode d'utilisation du viagra prix du viagra generique what happens if you take cialis and you don't need it acheter viagra en tunisie vente viagra maroc viagra in spain where to buy cheap viagra ebay best online generic viagra order viagra for men viagra pharmacy malaysia viagra montreal a vendre what is the side effect of cialis can you take viagra after drinking alcohol why do women take viagra how much does viagra cost in uk what age do men take viagra viagra zollfrei bestellen viagra no prescription pay pal qual o melhor generico do viagra viagra 50mg effects give viagra to women prostate cancer viagra treatment relationship between the prostate cialis is female viagra safe marketing cialis cheapest source cialis viagra how long before it takes effect cialis pills tadalafil under tongue dissolve generic viagra indian where to buy brand viagra online cialis reliable source viagra tablets dosage viagra miligram how to use cialis 20 mg precision peptides cialis substitutes for cialis viagra fake warning viagra generico yahoo levitra bayer-original viagra cialis walmart viagra and histamine release cialis 20 mg cena red wine viagra beta blocker and cialis viagra music commercial blues viagra online per nachnahme bestellen cialis generic 40 mg price cialis canada splitting levitra tablets kamagra shop forum viagra old age achat viagra viagra retail discoun does super kamagra work herbal viagra in ireland que efectos hace el viagra viagra shipped to po box family meds com viagra cialis side effects blindness buy cialis with dapoxetine online overnight delivery cialis in canada online viagra price singapore is a prescription needed for cialis can girls take viagra wild horses viva viagra new song buy viagra over counter cialis sin receta madrid volkswagen viagra commercial muscle relaxers and viagra how is viagra made viagra for sale in india can cialis be used for women canadian pharmacy cialis paypal quick shipment cialis generique doctissimo edinburgh uk viagra tid news moo kamagra pattaya shemales and viagra 2 chainz viagra rap genius grand viagra cialis effetti collaterali presentaciones del cialis viagra young adults achat cialis pro best quality generic cialis how to buy cialis online usa abcialis can i take viagra with high blood pressure medication viagra wirkung wikipedia viagra sales in china online discount cialis tarif viagra en pharmacie buy lilly brand cialis prices in uk viagra comment prendre du cialis if cialis doesnt work amlodipine and viagra interaction cialis and lexapro history of levitra buy cialis mastercard can i take viagra with warfarin where can i buy viagra in bangalore buy kamagra oral jelly thailand womens viagra australia can you get dependent on viagra water melon viagra se necesita receta para comprar viagra en mexico viagra soft tabs uk buy cialis strips online isordil viagra what happen if a girl takes viagra viagra ultram pastilla levitra funciona expiration date viagra cialis introducing overnight viagra shipping efectos secundarios del uso de viagra viagra and ecstacy acheter cialis en pharmacie sans ordonnance cialis by prescription cialis price in uae how long does viagra last after taking it kamagra 100mg oral jelly uk uso prolongado de cialis viagra covered by insurance 2011 vicodin and viagra can i take viagra on a plane cheap viagra cheap cialis/viagra does cialis make you hard safe viagra generic cialis price in canada can i get a viagra prescription online viagra how to use effectively sildenafil citrate generic viagra uprima should i take cialis on an empty stomach cialis hypertension high blood pressure viagra and high blood pressure insert levitra package importing viagra from canada caterpillar fungus viagra himalayas generic viagra joke el viagra produce impotencia kamagra maxi 100mg cialis prospektus cialis adalah cost of levitra in canada natural viagra scam buying generic cialis online safe viagra spam email virus funcionamento do viagra kamagra googledeal tome viagra y no funciono expiry date of viagra buycialis generic viagra pharmacy reviews penggunaan cialis viagra wada el generico de la viagra viagra kupit cialis 20 mg pret when will legal generic viagra be available best price cialis 5mg viagra mc mimo-na jem mp3 buy british viagra viagra like pill how to make herbal viagra puedo tomar levitra y alcohol organic viagra products generic cialis for sale in the u.k viagra name origin cialis cialis viagra viagra 15 cialis 20 mg viagra procedure canada herbal viagra cream levitra pill size lifestyle pharmaceuticals cialis viagra dapoxetine next day shipping generic viagra from india reviews seattle viagra first time taking viagra how long before cialis kicks in online viagra in uk acheter du cialis 20 mg viagra dosage effectiveness generic viagra pay online check discount prices on viagra cialis toronto canada is it safe to buy viagra in mexico viagra philippines prices viagra 25 mg dose crystal meth viagra viagra tablets picture levitra duration of action how long is viagra effective video of man taking viagra smokestack lightning viagra can you buy viagra in usa cheaper alternatives to viagra how to buy viagra in california viagra demonstration video what is the generic name of viagra over the counter cialis canada viagra canadian meds enlarged prostate and viagra insurance cover viagra achat viagra internet best cheap cialis generic viagra on line viagra din plante buy viagra uk chemist ou acheter du cialis forum scary movie 4 viagra video michael youn 11 commandements viagra q buy viagra online mad about you viagra episode viagra alternative review viagra antigeisha can you buy viagra over the counter in india cheapest generic viagra and canada buy one viagra professional cialis reviews what dosage of viagra can women take male viagra vente viagra pfizer is there safe generic viagra viagra pfizer costo using viagra for performance anxiety cialis precio en farmacias experiences of viagra cialis dosage timing kamagra per nachnahme kaufen doxycycline and viagra viagra tablets in india price cialis generico no brasil illegal to order viagra online viagra cause herpes outbreak safe places to buy generic viagra viagra kaufen indien buy cheapest viagra online cialis india cheap order illegal to buy viagra online whats a viagra viagra for ms why do women use viagra most reliable generic viagra site generic viagra online next day delivery prix de levitra en pharmacie was viagra discovered by accident viagra propranolol kamagra gel ingredients viagra douglas pharmaceuticals australia tiger king viagra buy viagra online california viagra in jakarta recommended sites to buy viagra cialis shipping to canada same day viagra delivery viagra on young men kamagra oral jelly hrvatska viagra alprazolam lexapro and cialis viagra malaysia lelong viagra price hong kong viagra en ligne pfizer how often to take levitra fake kamagra sites rx cialis cialis nz price viagra gift comprare viagra su internet get cialis on-line does viagra reduce refractory period pulmonary hypertension in dogs viagra viagra online bestellen zoll cialis healthexpress.fr kamagra 100mg online comment acheter viagra en pharmacie ying da wang chinese viagra cialis germania how old do you have to be to take cialis risk of cialis indian version of viagra stop viagra email is extenze like viagra tomar viagra joven purchase of levitra cialis once a day uk getting viagra in the philippines viagra drinks best free cialis softtabs online levitra te koop how often is it safe to take cialis heart failure and viagra les effets du viagra what does viagra when will generic viagra be available in canada cialis consecuencias liquid viagra buy uk tipos de viagra que existen para comprar viagra precisa de receita medica viagra casero para la mujer viagra invention date traitement cialis 5mg cpr 28 lowest price viagra brand the effects of cialis buy viagra sample pack dhea and viagra viagra brand 50mg best site to buy generic cialis viagra online florida viagra much take when viagra doesn't work anymore levitra no prescription canada cost of once daily cialis super generic viagra silagra tricare daily cialis viagra taking directions psychological erectile dysfunction viagra where to buy safe viagra where to buy viagra in auckland what is cialis tablets viagra was originally developed as a treatment for do you need prescription viagra uk tomar viagra siendo joven much does daily cialis cost beste online apotheke viagra viagra propecia buy online online levitra reviews viagra lawsuit settlements drug better than viagra max dosage cialis best site for viagra viagra recovery time after ejaculation bayer viagra preis generic mexico pharmacy viagra 10mg cialis review buy viagra online in singapore generic viagra availability united states when does the patent on cialis expire viagra copies viagra farmacia prezzo generic viagra online overnight shipping buy viagra vegas generic cialis names can i get viagra at walgreens viagra without a presciption existe viagra para las mujeres viagra nebenwirkungen wiki use of viagra herbal viagra in hyderabad can i take cialis daily levitra no prescription overnight delivery ajanta super kamagra erfahrungen india generic viagra buy one alli weight control what is viagra price viagra 25 g levitra without rx cialis 10 or 20 levitra preturi effects generic side viagra cialis and exercise performance viagra strengths mg cheap genuine viagra how much mg of viagra should i take cialis daily buy online natural womens viagra cheap sydney viagra cialis se vende sin receta viagra falls psych wiki el viagra mas efectivo how long does cialis take to kick in viagra and horses viagra red face online levitra purchase 2buy cheap levitra next day delivery cialis user reports on professional viagra proscar viagra movie about pfizer viagra where can i buy viagra for cheap does cialis reduce blood pressure levitra reaction time viagra in system billig viagra bestellen ohne rezept viagra yoga where to buy female viagra uk viagra head office snopes need prescription for viagra canada genetic viagra kamagra 100 mg oral jelly kamagra pills review quick forum readtopic cialis signature content levitra orodispersible tablet viagra generika ohne rezept buy viagra online greece viagra femenino chile cialis and stomach problems can i buy cialis in australia costco cialis price kamagra is it legal in uk does viagra work on animals canadian pharmacy viagra professional does viagra work after ejaculation what is the average dose of cialis ideal dose of viagra does cialis cause headaches generic 5mg cialis psych viagra falls viagra soft tab generic can i take half a cialis pill propecia cialis chewable viagra online viagra vente en pharmacie viagra during pregnancy generic cialis order softtabs online do girls like viagra viagra generico on line was ist kamagra oral jelly viagrauk maca natural viagra inventor do viagra side effects of viagra overdose levitra pharmacies sun pharmacy viagra viagra information from drugs.com how long will viagra stay in your system viagra does it work on women cialis 2.5 mg side effects can i take viagra with metoprolol viagra experiences forum viagra come funziona how to order viagra from mexico brazilian generic viagra normal viagra dosage viagra fancy dress viagra onlne rush limbaugh illegal viagra levitra failure acquistare viagra in italia home remedies viagra sildenafil tablet viagra wirkt viagra bei frauen compare prices levitra can i take l-arginine with cialis cheapest viagra online plus zenegra deaths caused by viagra viagra cialis study cialis online with paypal kamagra 100mg opinie buy viagra los angeles acheter cialis en france prix levitra en pharmacie viagra expiry period how to take a viagra pill cerealis viagra que es el viagra femenino is viagra bad for young men sample viagra where can i get real viagra cialis/dapoxetine viagra for women dosage viagra drugs zenegra can you eat after taking viagra do viagra work on women cialis 20 mg wikipedia buy kamagra in australia foro de viagra how long does viagra take to work what is the cost of viagra in australia extenze with viagra ordering viagra in canada viagra online thailand how to recognize fake viagra viagra illegal uk best place to get viagra online viagra par paypal walmart cialis pharmacy should viagra be taken with food best viagra price uk sale of viagra levitra pret viagra vs cialis licensed pharmacies online cialis 20 mg prezzo kamagra soft uk viagra super active sildenafil super kamagra online original online viagra can you buy viagra overseas viagra patent news cialis 5 mg when to take how does viagra look 3 dollar viagra what will happen if i take viagra and dont need it amyl nitrate and viagra fastest delivery cialis viagra definition wikipedia how do i get my doctor to prescribe viagra effect cialis women getting cialis prescription viagra y presion alta what is viagra how it works is cialis generic cialis gay men ibuprofen viagra viagra and sotalol what exactly does viagra do viagra/ dapoxetine viagra pinus size testimonials viagra kiss pfizer viagra price 100mg cialis y vih take viagra without ed why does viagra not work viagra y alcohol yahoo venta de viagra costa rica viagra generic fda approved meilleur site cialis generique how long does 25mg of viagra last prix de viagra en tunisie efek samping obat viagra buying viagra in france instructions for using viagra cialis uso diario 5mg kamagra nederland ervaringen herbal viagra alternatives uk cialis tricare viagra erection procedure 150mg of viagra cialis 5mg online kaufen viagra posters acheter cialis online can viagra be ordered online online viagra gel cialis separate tubs cheap viagra in the uk will insurance cover cialis is viagra covered under insurance viagra 50 vs 100 abra viagra cialis in romania nitrolingual spray and viagra viagra in britain over counter viagra in australia does anthem blue cross cover viagra where to buy liquid viagra viagra and how it works kamagra jelly reviews does cialis lower your blood pressure generic viagra wholesale fast delivery where can i buy viagrain australia with paypal viagra dosage suhagra cara penggunaan viagra non prescription cialis canada statins or niaspan and viagra viagra pharmacy in canada where we can buy viagra in india viagra user expierences how to use viagra tablets why it is used generic viagra chiang mai what is the dosage for cialis caverta kamagra statin side affects purchase cialis no prescription order viagra by mail buying viagra united states side affects from viagra highest dosage of viagra que tan bueno es el cialis viagra from canad maximum daily dose of viagra kamagra 4u special offer buy viagra online onde comprar cialis generico cialis y el alcohol best ways to take viagra viagra pas d'effet cialis erection pics cialis payment paypal cialis generic instructions viagra falls psych full episode kamagra apcalis uk levitra 20 mg precio chile does walmart carry viagra viagra rezeptfrei test cialis from canada online pharmacy natural viagra watermelon can you buy viagra online safely kamagra viagra silden acquisto cialis senza ricetta forced viagra levitra canada paypal cialis canada pharmacy online buy cheap caverta kamagra images generic information viagra viagra global sales does viagra work well viagra kaufen legal soft cialis reviews comment utiliser cialis vrai cialis moins cher over the counter viagra rite aid is kamagra legal in thailand viagra for women cost cheap bulk viagra what does real cialis look like la viagra se puede comprar sin receta generic cialis professional online kamagra jelly china how long does half a viagra last what is levitra el viagra wikipedia cialis supplement pill cialis where to buy kamagra in ireland goat weed vs viagra does generic viagra work yahoo answers viagra price at cvs viagra and wine can a young person take viagra pfizer free viagra why does cialis use bathtubs female viagra usa does cialis increase testosterone viagra apoteket el viagra no me hace efecto does kamagra help premature ejaculation viagra stores in bangalore order cialis from mexico results of cialis and viagra viagra working video food that acts like viagra viagra original for sale fruit flavoured viagra how long does cialis back pain last adderall and cialis interaction men herbal viagra is viagra bought on the internet safe viagra subscribe email viagra actress the origin of viagra can a walk in clinic prescribe viagra viagra 4 hrs is viagra safe for young people principio attivo del cialis generic cialis tadalafil 20 mg from india cialis buy singapore cialis componentes trazodone viagra viagra di erbe viagra niagra generico viagra precio can i buy cialis over the counter in canada does food affect cialis viagra for cheap on line viagra list price levitra prezzo al pubblico viagra laboratorio chile cialis memory loss split viagra in half viagra precisa receita medica viagra for sale nz contraindications with viagra comprare levitra senza ricetta cialis forms viagra how long to kick in cialis wirkungslos viagra tablet picture kamagra gel oral 100 mg cialis soft tabs information cialis 20 mg 2 tablet how well does levitra work how do i get viagra in canada seamus moore viagra song lyrics powered by blogengine viagra generic cialis softtabs tadalafil cialis c'est quoi usa viagra cheap info viagra death rates cialis experience forum viagra pocelui lyrics eli lily cialis vipps approved viagra viagra over 65 long term cialis use the viagra triangle viagra for 30 year old viagra kaufen rezeptfrei love and other drugs viagra scene 100 dollars cialis low cost viagra fast uk viagra without prescription how long until cialis works super cialis best price yahoo viagra spam cialis professional generic viagra how effective how long does 5mg of cialis last levitra trial coupon levitra kaufen europa non-prescription alternatives to viagra kamagra jelly 100mg viagra etiquette is viagra from canada safe viagra atenolol interaction viagra for women tablets query viagra viagra effect on fertility how long does 5mg cialis work prescription viagra ireland safely order viagra online viagra total sales buying viagra in canada online why is viagra cheaper in canada how viagra works in men what does viagra do to teenagers caverta cialis viagra tadalis when taking cialis generic viagra and paypal double dose levitra abra 100 viagra viagra impolite pharmacy viagra canada viagra generic india mastercard effect viagra normal men how young is too young for viagra feedblitz news edinburgh pages viagra viagra young age viagra boston ma trusted sites to buy cialis potenzmittel cialis wirkung caverta cialis cheap does cialis shrink the prostate viagra professional price 20mg cialis generic viagra 50mg price india cialis clinical studies viagra information in hindi online viagra generic quick buy cialis daily dose cialis pharmacie france puede tomar viagra un hipertenso viagra priapismo cuanto tiempo dura el viagra viagra fungus what is the difference between viagra and cialas trial pack of viagra viagra america long effect generic cialis online where can i buy real levitra online how to find cialis no xplode viagra wellbutrin cialis viagra where to buy viagra in south africa for sale snafi vs cialis overnight pharmacy 4 u cialis levitra no me funciono buy cialis internet wife viagra buy viagra blue pill viagra mg cialis kopen amsterdam alternative for viagra gnc buy viagra in sydney australia viagra in ahmedabad nasal spray viagra buy buy sale viagra viagra viagra prescription assistance program cialis patent litigation levitra online in canada what happens if you take expired viagra levitra price nz healthy alternative to viagra cialis hardness can you buy viagra in chemist viagra what it does cialis raise blood pressure viagra does it make you last longer cialis le moins cher viagra counterfeit viagra length of action how to get viagra from doctor how to use herbal viagra viagra manufacturers india frauen viagra kaufen can you take cialis with alcohol kamagra dropship drugstore 1st viagra cialis effexor canadian prescriptions viagra viagra liquid for women did viagra work for you cheap cialis nz viagra and metoprolol interaction difference between generic cialis brand levitra delovanje is kamagra legal in usa buy viagra over the counter in canada valor de cialis en chile cialis kicks in viagra for women bangalore viagra tanzania impotence and viagra over the counter viagra pills puedo tomar viagra todos los dias venta de viagra en rancagua cialis cena beograd viagra online fedex delivery eminem viagra cialis define kamagra bestellen nederland 50 mg viagra effects viagra canada satisfaction guarantee american pharmacy viagra whats happens when a girl takes viagra cheapest brand viagra online how to import viagra into canada viagra 20mg preis viagra for sale mastercard viagra demotivational cialis doctor online prescription what is the difference between cialis and cialis professional viagra pas cher france canada buy cialis online viagra and musse together can you cut cialis pills cialis side viagra buy china comparateur de prix cialis how to buy viagra legally womenra - female viagra prescription for levitra importing generic viagra viagra 100 mg wirkungsdauer cialis sudafed best over the counter alternative to viagra do you need a prescription to buy viagra in spain viagra over the counter alternative proviron viagra cheap viagra viagra buying viagra panama viagra contraindications and side-effects taking viagra first time viagra kiting viagra for seniors taking cialis with adderall viagra rite aid cost cialis and orange juice u 2899 viagra kamagra jel forum cialis free 30 day maca vs viagra what to take with viagra to last longer discount levitra pharmacy purchase levitra costi over the counter viagra uk watermelons and viagra viagra generico vendita italia where to get viagra in hyderabad how long is viagra in your system kamagra blue pill cialis prezzo italia viagra heart attack risk distintos tipos de viagra buying viagra in bulgaria viagra y consecuencias cialis green where can i buy generic cialis kamagra gel 50mg viagra sample overnight delivery how to best use cialis viagra demonstrate is viagra blue cheap cialis 20mg pills cialis preise in frankreich if women take viagra seduced amanda and viagra la viagra necesita receta medica viagra et hypertension arterielle cialis sklep levitra shop germany viagra after radical prostatectomy viagra available china kamagra gel side effects levitra from canada cialis packung does viagra have long term side effects walmart drug price viagra viagra 50 mg rezeptfrei cheap brand viagra online free viagra for diabetics cialis in australia price get some viagra viagra and tamsulosin viagra orgasm viagra alternative online slot game is viagra effective on women las mujeres pueden tomar viagra does viagra work for pe cuanto cuesta el viagra en peru safe place buy cialis online where to buy generic viagra online can you take viagra with lisinopril overnight cheap cialis cialisprofessional prix du viagra en pharmacie en belgique what happens when you take viagra without ed formula del cialis se necesita receta para comprar viagra en chile viagra o simili levitra time frame uk cialis prices comprar viagra online fiable cialis tabletas 20 mg pharmacy viagra no prescription viagra under tongue crushed viagra kick in viagra alternative india does food affect viagra viagra online cheapest price was kostet viagra in holland female viagra herbal 40mg cialis safe viagra cannes viagra receita medica email hacked viagra viagra ve muadilleri real cialis online is viagra ok if you drink consultation and overnight viagra websites cialis viagra kaufen thailand cialis generic sale can you snort viagra get high viagra und speed cialis at a young age cialis pas cher belgique combien de temps dure l'effet du viagra kamagra 100mg tabs does cialis work yahoo viagra boosts chemical cuddle viagra other medications viagra en la mujer efectos viagra side effects back muscles venta de viagra femenino en chile viagra treats erectile dysfunction female version of viagra niagra levitra herbal best canadian viagra viagra feminin sans ordonnance viagra as recreational drug is cialis available in india viagra kamagra cialis aneros viagra with dapoxetine cheap how long do you last on viagra cialis oad viagra before training levitra medikament viagra generic available in united states how long do viagra side effects last price for 5mg cialis cialis ed health man patent on cialis best place for viagra online viagra as a performance enhancing drug generic cialis side effects viagra dosage directions voglio comprare viagra buying viagra london atripla cialis viagra in ukraine best available viagra in india half viagra enough how often can you safely take viagra prostate and viagra tips for taking cialis kamagra manchester achat cialis lilly cialis mechanism of action natural alternative for viagra lowest viagra price at online pharmacy kamagra jelly fake onde comprar cialis generico no brasil viagra interact with lisinopril age of viagra users levitra cheaper pfizer viagra history cialis canada voucher levitra niacin viagra ayurvedic tablets effect of viagra overseas cialis kamagra sicher online bestellen cialis en espana viagra effetti indesiderati using cialis 20mg lowest price cialis online effects of cialis in women non-prescription generic cialis what happens if you take two viagra pills does viagra need to be prescribed what was viagra created for uk cheapest viagra is viagra safe for older men cialis women use herbal viagra reviews uk what would viagra do to a woman cialis tabletki india online pharmacy viagra fabricant sp cialis de m nage el cialis es de venta libre how to get a viagra sample where to buy viagra in sri lanka purchase viagra online paypal cialis generico en farmacias similares cialis prices walgreens cheap cialis europe sublingual viagra online cheap cialis prescription cost of viagra in usa viagra and xanax combination levitra amlodipine besylate do you need a prescription to buy cialis online cialis professional sublingual cialis and food intake cialis female viagra cialis how long till it works viagra made at home cialis cialis genuinerx net viagra viagra subaction showcomments viagra start from newest buying viagra in australia online buy viagra online yahoo answers levitra side effects rash viagra himalayas grilled viagra viagra look viagra en ligne-paypal online store viagra viagrapills will viagra make you horney viagra nhs prescription how to get viagra in india el viagra que hace can i buy viagra in boots does viagra helps in premature ejaculation viagra halicyte where can you find viagra lloyds pharmacy viagra reviews erection after orgasm viagra cut viagra pill where to buy viagra generic with mastercard kamagra oral jelly kaufen ohne kreditkarte cialis debt consolidation q viagra viagra untuk lelaki cialis 5 mg en venezuela best place order viagra online prix viagra 25 mg what is the difference between revatio and viagra buy viagra san francisco viagra stories forum viagra uk without prescription forum prix du viagra cialis 40 mg tablets australian cheap viagra taking viagra more than once a day cialis overdose side effects what does levitra do can viagra effect inr cialis 20mg in deutschland proscar and viagra viagra stores in delhi viagra costo en mexico real cost of cialis viagra se games when do i take my viagra generic cialis wikipedia viagra commercial youtube cialis 20mg 4 film tablet viagra ingrediants kamatra vs generic viagra viagra minoxidil to buy viagra in india watermellon rind viagra will doctor prescribe viagra canadian no prescription cialis pfizer free viagra sample levitra y alcohol azithromycin cialis achat de viagra en pharmacie walgreens levitra cost viagra presentations viagra betrug generic viagra sold in chinatown nyc methotrexate and viagra significado levitra is kamagra dangerous watermelon viagra youtube cialis 20mg apotheke viagra 25mg vs 50 mg levitra brasil generic viagra shipping to canada cialis for sale in uk where to buy generic viagra reviews comprar viagra online no brasil how much is a cialis prescription generic viagra that is reliable where can i get viagra for women will viagra make me fail a drug test generic version of cialis how can i get free samples of viagra viagra stop stop stop russian can you buy viagra in mexico without perscription cialis amoxicillin interaction deals on viagra purchase viagra in ireland cialis to lower blood pressure generic viagra soft tab fast efectos secundarios de usar viagra most effective use viagra 18 year old taking viagra cialis 5 mg le prix viagra 100 mg forum la pastilla cialis para que sirve viagra directions taking online prescription cialis with discounts how to buy viagra in beijing como conseguir viagra en madrid viagra daily dosage on line pharmacy viagra viagra in females viagra farmacie pret what is cialis wikipedia global viagra does alcohol affect viagra la viagra es mala vente de viagra en suisse name of generic viagra compra viagra contrareembolso pills similar to viagra getting cialis in canada thuoc viagra la gi taking cialis daily can you buy viagra over the counter at cvs kamagra oral jelly wirkungsdauer what will half a viagra do el viagra sube la presion fast viagra online que es cialis 20 mg buy viagra suppositories online viagra canadian pharmacy online gloria viagra wikipedia ginko viagra cialis bph treatment what is the best dose for viagra viagra for cheap online is it illegal to import viagra cialis online pharmacy without prescription cialis hearing loss treatment kamagra jelly wirkung pill cutter 20mg cialis brand name levitra online buy viagra super force with mastercard viagra and emphsema cialis what strength buying viagra hong kong viagra benzeri order cialis phone life of viagra does viagra work for performance anxiety generic viagra online pharmacy no prescription viagra super active vs viagra professional viagra from uk buy viagra online eu cialis and kidneys viagra tested ordering cialis viagra 25 mg wirkung viagra femenino gel cuando no se puede tomar viagra what happens to women on viagra brand name viagra prices bester viagra ersatz nexium viagra free levitra trial legal buy viagra canada order cialis black online levitra 10 mg vardenafil viagra pill canada cialis daily use dosage what age do men start taking viagra acheter viagra luxembourg viagra sales usa robin williams viagra full version brand viagra usa pink viagra sale viagra kills man wo kann man viagra online bestellen cialis 20 mg vs 10 mg daily dosage of cialis how many viagra can i take at one time buy generic cialis usa how to buy viagra in dublin levitra online canadian pharmacy female cialis no prescription teenage viagra is it easy to get a viagra prescription cialis 20 mg dose generic viagra tabs viagra side effects next day buy viagra uk quick delivery viagra online generic positive and negative effects of viagra viagra metformin rush illegal viagra cialis pineapple juice is viagra really good get generic viagra prescription online best online price viagra is viagra covered by health insurance in canada how much kamagra should i take cialis blurred vision first days viagra sales tesco generic vs viagra viagra forum.hr viagra ups delivery viagra ontario canada russian man dies after guzzeling viagra cialis for sale in canada generic cialis online india which works better viagra or cilas are viagra generics safe can you take viagra more than once a day price for cialis 20mg viagra craigslist is herbal viagra safe levitra strips kaufen what was viagra created for how to get cialis prescribed ambien and viagra beli viagra di surabaya kamagra sales online viagra pfizer 25mg k b viagra uden recept zoloft cialis interaction cialis y antibioticos md-u.com viagra viagra australian supplier viagra dosage best taken when viagra vente libre pharmacie buy viagra in lahore viagra and diabetes type 2 how to buy cialis with a prescription wat is kamagra jelly viagra women information vitamins that work like viagra viagra africain how long to wait after viagra where can i get viagra in chennai kamagra oral jelly buy online when should i take cialis for best results vendita viagra generico i keep getting viagra spam emails tadalafil versus viagra how to stop viagra working kamagra jelly price viagra obmani no ostansya buy viagra winnipeg comprar viagra terrassa overnight delivery guaranteed viagra cialis merck is viagra a banned substance cialis women taking viagra introduced year viagra icecream viagra woman take cost of cialis prescription order viagra fake viagra side effects cialis high dosage do viagra pills work viagra winnipeg uk viagra zenegra video viagra works what happens if girls take viagra viagra vending machine cialis online store viagra crohn viagra internetu what is viagra jelly viagra sex pictures buy viagra in the united states buy viagra uganda how to get a cialis prescription viagra sale uk mail order cialis in italiano sp cialis audit fournisseur how to get viagra quickly can a 16 year old take viagra do cialis soft tabs work generic cialis softtabs mail order reliable sites to buy viagra online pharmacy sales has anyone died from viagra viagra in bd what is the side effects of cialis viagra customs original purpose for viagra kamagra 100mg oral jelly sildenafil viagra in uganda viagra safe for young men viagra prices in canada viagra visual disturbances buy cheap cialis india q cheap viagra generic lowest pri when to take cialis 5mg best online pharmacy for generic cialis viagra barcelona comprar cheapest generic cialis pills uk viagra gel kaufen levitra euroclinix donde comprar viagra en lima gneric viagra viagra and hypertension medication viagra de 50 does viagra work video viagra pregnancy category informacion del viagra is viagra legal in usa viagra causing impotence should i take 100mg of viagra buy cialis in uk no prescription wirkung von viagra auf frauen levitra doesn't work for me when does viagra patent run out how much is viagra in mexico viagra prizer viagra prices boots clopidogrel cialis natural herbal substitute for viagra viagra and drug tests kamagra from china pfizer viagra 50mg tablets costo cialis 5 mg cialis tomar quanto tempo antes prix cialis 10mg en pharmacie price of viagra for men in india ou peut on acheter du viagra viagra quicker dosis recomendadas de viagra what is the main components of viagra how long does it take for a viagra pill to work viagra without a prescription australia viagra over the counter countries do i need a prescription for viagra uk kamagra tablets review what does viagra do to healthy men viagra testicle pain cvs minute clinic viagra levitra price philippines cialis 5mg price australia epinephrine for viagra overdose how much is levitra per pill cialis traitement viagra case study instructions taking viagra what happens if you take two viagra viagra bangladesh dhaka viagra for sale cork viagra horse commercial kamagra jelly for women viagra and hiv meds viagra cardiomyopathy uso del viagra en el adulto mayor purchasing levitra how long does it take for cialis 5mg to work prozac with viagra how long after eating can i take viagra viagra shot ingredients increase libido female viagra buy viagra america kamagra cheap generic viagra best piece cordarone viagra best site to get viagra cialis cost in india why has the cost of viagra gone up how many types of viagra are there levitra online uk buy cialis no prescription paypal viagra causing high blood pressure mccain avoids viagra cnn viagra 50 mg o 100 mg buy viagra in pharmacy viagra indian brands does bayer make cialis sildenafil 100mg gut viagra losartan and viagra interaction viagra used for cardiac issues viagra in india mumbai vente de viagra en tunisie buy cialis arizona 3 caverta veega generic viagra viagra contradictions viagra longer than 4 hours cialis c20 pills new viagra commercial cialis fluoxetine buy viagraonline generic viagra evaluation subaction showcomments viagra optional posted viagra mississauga order cheap cialis online how to buy viagra in tijuana how long does it take viagra to work cheapest viagra in sydney viagra canadian prices cialis generika 10mg viagra from canada no prescription levitra canadian pharmacy when will viagra be available over the counter palm tree pollen viagra levitra vs vardenafil Astros-holic Synonymous

11/8/07: Ed Wade – On The Lidge Of Reason

The trade:
Brad Lidge (last year of arbitration) earned 5.35 mill last year + Eric Bruntlett, 1st year arb, earned 525K last year, utility guy who can play any position except pitcher and catcher
Michael Bourn (finished 1st year in the ML, paid 380K) + Geoff Geary (837,500K) 1st arb year + minor league 3B Mike Costanzo

Not explicitly stated is that now the Astros will have to spend serious bucks on a closer, which will not be cheap, and will be replacing Luke Scott’s production with Michael Bourn’s. Also not explicitly stated is that Brett Myers will be able to start next year, so the Phils just saved themselves the trouble of having to find a good ML starter.

So let’s take a look. In terms of money, well, even if Lidge is paid 6.5 mill and Bruntlett 1 mill, the Phils will owe only that 7.5 mill this year and if they offer Lidge arbitration at the end of the season, will get 2 draft picks. They also acquired a good ML starter free of charge. Not bad.
The Astros substitute Michael Bourn for Luke Scott (no real savings there), acquire a somewhat cheap middle reliever who will probably earn 1.5 mill next year, a minor league 3B AND must find a closer somewhere and IF they get Coco Cordero, as I’ve heard they want to, will be paying him at LEAST 8 mill a year for at LEAST 3 years if not more. No savings. On the other hand, they might could trade Luke Scott for a closer, but I wouldn’t count on it seeing as how they obviously don’t think Luke is worth anything much.

I doubt they intend to use Bourn as a 4th OF and pinch runner, as the Phillies did, even though they might, but I suspect they mean to use him as the new full time CF and move Pence to right. I wouldn’t be surprised if they decide to use Luke as the new Orlando Palmeiro, which would be a seriously stupid decision, as he’s a lousy pinch hitter.

But anyway, let’s look at some numbers:

Eric Bruntlett, age 30 in March, started the year in the minors, but ended up having 165 PA, actually more than last year. He went 34/138 with 5 doubles and no homers, 20 BB, 27 K and 1 GIDP. He’s an unusually patient hitter and has averaged over 4 pitches/PA during his 5 years in the majors. His glove is adequate almost anywhere and he is surprisingly fast in the OF. His line .246/.346/.283/.629 (last year) and according to Lee Sinins, had a (-)6 RCAA.

Brad Lidge, age 31, (who is going to be delighted with pitching in Philly where the extraordinarily polite fans never boo pitchers who blow saves) really could use a change of scenery as too many Astros fans are going to throw rotten tomatoes at him if he ever gives up another homer again and are going to insist that Albert destroyed his mind. Or something. Anyway, his line last year between closing and pitching in middle relief: 54H, 25 ER, 9 HR, 30 BB, 88 K over 67 IP with 19 saves, 7 holds and 8 BS and a 3.36 ERA. Lee Sinins has him with 6 RSAA.

Michael Bourn, age 25, lefty bat, had 33 H, 3 doubles, 3 triples, 1 homer, 13 BB, 21 K, 1 GIDP over 133 PA, 29 runs, 18 SB, 1 CS – his line .277/.348/.378/.726 and he had 1 RCAA according to Lee Sinins. If he played full time, I would expect roughly 5 times as many PA, and so this would be 15 doubles, 15 triples (yeh, sure) 5 homers, 65 BB, 105 K, 5 GIDP, 90 SB, 5 CS and 145 runs scored. Giggle. Well, I seriously doubt 15 triples or 90 SB or 145 RS. I’m not understanding how he’s any different from Josh Anderson. Ah well. Yet another Astro left to rot in AAA, unless they have the sense to trade him, seeing as how he’s otherwise useless and there is more than one team who WANTS a CF and doesn’t want to spend FA money – can you say White Sox?

Geoff Geary, age 31, righty reliever. Can you say Brian Moehler/Joe Borkowski only 5 years younger? In 57 games over 67.1 IP, 72 H, 30 ER, 8 HR, 25 BB, 38 K, 9 H, 3 BS, 4.41 ERA, 1.44 WHIP, .283 BAA and 1 RSAA. Last year, he was tougher on leftys than rightys, but his career stats are about equal. He had a great year in 06, but apparently he lost both velocity and command last year (according to a private email I received from a Phillies fan.) Who knows what he can do with a new pitching coach? I’m not exactly holding my breath.

Mike Costanzo, the minor league 3B. Completed his year at AA Reading (a hitters’ park) and his line reads 137/508 AB with 29 doubles and 27 homers, 75 BB, 157 K, (27% K in 583 PA) 86 RBI over 137 games – .270/.368/.490/.858. And here is what poster “bad doctor” #113 on BTF had to say about Constanzo and the homer factor at Reading:

“Didn’t Dan mention a ridiculous HR factor for Reading? That would strongly affect the perceived value of a TTO guy ( 3 true outcomes, meaning a ballplayer like adam dunn who mostly either walks, strikes out or homers – a bad contact hitter who also probably has a lot of GIDP) like Costanzo especially. FWIW, he was .279/.394/.538 with 17 HR in 251 AB at Reading and .259/.339/.432 with 9 HR in 243 AB on the road. As a team, Reading hit 55 HR at home, 33 on the road (in = AB) … pitchers allowed 1.01 HR/9 at home, 0.84 HR/9 on the road.”

Kevin Goldstein of Baseball Prospectus recently referred to Costanzo’s defense as “impersonating a lawn ornament.” Great. He had 34 errors last year (and 30 the year before)and all yall KNOW how generous scorers are with hits. In other words, he doesn’t look like Jeff Bagwell, who was acknowledged to have an excellent glove at third. And we don’t exactly have room at 1B in the majors.

So what do I think? Well, it depends what we get for Luke Scott and Josh Anderson – they had BETTER be traded as there is no point in not trading them and it depends whether or not we spend a hellacious amount of money on a “proven closer” so as far as I’m concerned, the dealin ain’t done. If Josh Anderson rots in AAA, Luke rots on the bench and we sign some 10 mill a year for 5 years closer, then this trade makes the Jennings trade look good.

For a different prospective on this trade, click here to read Nate Silver’s analysis from Baseball Prospectus Unfiltered. He thinks the Phils got the short end of the stick in the trade and here is what he thinks about Bourn and Costanza:

                 “Is that (getting Lidge for one year at 6+ mill plus the 2 picks at the end of the year if they offer him arbitration) worth giving up two good prospects in the form of Michael Bourn and Mike Costanzo? No, and it isn’t close. Costanzo is not a Grade-A prospect, but he had a very solid year in Reading, where his 27 home runs placed him second in the Eastern League. That translates to a .263 EqA in our hot-off-the-presses Davenport Translations, indicating that he could be a major league average third baseman right about now, probably along the lines of a Steve Buechele type of player, which would be very encouraging for a 24-year-old.”

- He doesn’t note that Reading is an extreme hitters’ park and Constanzo has an extremely high K rate and that he can’t catch a cold and seems headed for first or DH. He also forgets that Brett Myers is FAR more valuable as a starter than closer and that Philly has seemingly added a starter without giving anything up or paying FA prices.

          “Bourn, meanwhile, has less upside but more locked-in value, and by all signs is poised for a 3-5 year run as a league-average center fielder. Projected by PECOTA for a .271/.346/.401 performance prior to the start of the season, he spent the entire year on the Phillies bench, essentially matching his projection with a .277/.353/.378 batting line over 119 at-bats. Although those batting numbers are superficially unimpressive, consider that the average National League center fielder posted a .273/.336/.426 batting line last year, which is highly comparable in value to Bourn’s. Bourn also accumulated 18 stolen bases in 19 attempts, a remarkable record for a player that was usually coming in cold as a pinch-runner in obvious stealing situations. Essentially, he’s the player that Juan Pierre is supposed to be.”

- AND he has a strong and accurate arm, too. Not that that is a particular interest of BP. I have heard from just about every Phillies fan that Bourn is a great center fielder and that he is fast and a SMART baserunner. Better than Willy Taveras by FAR. But not better than Luke Scott. Unfortunately.

Tags: ,

45 Responses to “11/8/07: Ed Wade – On The Lidge Of Reason”

  1. Steve Schramm says:

    Keith Law wrote this for ESPN insider:
    Astros get little value for Lidge
    posted: Wednesday, November 7, 2007
    Ed Wade’s reputation as a GM in Philadelphia was as a man who overvalued relief pitching, but in his first deal as the Houston GM, he gave away one of the better relievers in the National League for three spare parts.
    Lidge’s struggles in 2006 may or may not have had anything to do with the infamous home run Albert Pujols hit during the 2005 NLCS, but in 2007 he looked a lot more like his old self, working with a plus fastball and plus slider, but with some of the control issues he had in 2006 carrying over. He’s been more homer-prone the last two years, and he’s moving to a great home run park, but in general he marks a huge upgrade in the Phillies’ bullpen, reducing their reliance on 40-year-old Tom Gordon (who works mostly off two-seamers now, pitching away from contact) and allowing them to return Brett Myers to the rotation. If you believe Lidge’s problems in 2006 and even his tendency to give up longballs in 2007 were all or partly mental, then you could argue that the change of scenery will help him in that department even while the ballpark hurts him. The Phillies still need to add at least one arm to their ‘pen, but Lidge could easily end up as the best reliever to change teams this offseason.
    Wade’s announcement of the deal focused on Michael Bourn’s speed, pegging him as a good leadoff player and plus defender in center field. He is correct that Bourn is fast and can play center field, but he’s stretched as an everyday player, with a fringe-average bat, no power, and fringe-average plate discipline. He has a slap-and-run approach you often see in left-handed-hitting speedsters. While it would have made him a star in the 1970s or 1980s, only Ichiro Suzuki employs it to that degree of success now. His acquisition makes Luke Scott, who has hit .273/.366/.516 in over a full season’s worth of major league at-bats, expendable. That’s good news for anyone looking for a cheap left-handed bat to serve as the strong side of a platoon in an outfield corner or as a DH.
    The Astros also acquired Michael Costanzo, the second-round pick in the last Phillies draft under Wade. Costanzo should get a cup of coffee in the big leagues, but he’s not a regular and probably not a bench player. He’s a big, slow hacker with a complex swing and difficulty hitting anything but fastballs and hanging offspeed pitches, and right now he’s well below average at third base. Wade did acquire one middle reliever, Geoff Geary, who has marginal stuff and is an 11th or 12th man on a major league staff.
    It’s interesting that Wade thought this was the best he could get for Lidge, or he felt using Lidge (perhaps their most tradeable commodity, with one year left until free agency) to fill their center-field role was a good strategy. The closers on the free agent market are all worse than Lidge; only Francisco Cordero is close, and he’ll probably get a four-year deal. There had to be other teams interested in Lidge, and by acting quickly and dealing with his former club to acquire three players drafted while he was the Phillies’ GM, it looks like Wade completely misread the market for relievers. At the same time he put filling a specific hole ahead of maximizing his return on one of his best assets. It’s an inauspicious beginning to his tenure in Houston.

  2. Stephen says:

    Wow, lets hold the phone here for second and really think about what we have done.
    1) We freed our bull pen of Brade Lidge, who just had surgery to repair his knee, and in my opinion never really has ever “found his stride” especially in those tiiiiiight situations. Over the last year, the Astros reliever with the highest WRXL: Chad Qualls. Sarafate, the guys got talent and potential. Our new manager, appears to be level-headed and smart enough to eschew the 9th inning save opp logic and instead favors a tatic of bringing the right reliever when the game is on the line…like say before the 9th inning when the team is up by three runs. So good bye Brad, and hey, we just saved $7 million dollars in explicit cost.
    2) Now for some implicit costs; Regardless of Lisa’s feelings about the validity of Michael Bourn, we just avoided what looked to be the previous avenue we were taking, which was signing a Torri Hunter or an equally old and overvalued Aaron Rowand. That’s a savings of at least $10 million+….So if we do spend money on a Cordero or a Linebrink you can take that directly out of the $10 million plus in opportunity costs you forgot to calculate.
    3)Now we have more trade chips, this is good stuff people. A Josh Anderson, Luke Scott and Troy Patton package might be enough to pry the supposedly available Erik Beddard from Baltimore, who wants to dismantle and start over. Or perhaps that same or similar package for Kazmir. That’s just thinking of available starters. What I think everyone is failing to see is that we just gave ourselves options and we have a man at the helm is clearly making good deals and thinking at least one step ahead.
    Listen, I was as angry as the next indignant Astros fan about the use of Luke Scott last year, but Michael Bourn and Hunter Pence are a much better tandem than Hunter Pence and Luke Scott. Bourn brings a .350 OBP to the lead of spot, that lets Pence drop in either 2 or 5, a much better line-up usage for a guy who consistently hits for extra bases.
    So, Go Ed Wade, go. To say that this deal reeks of the Jennings deal is laughable, at best.

  3. Daniel says:

    Lidge probably would not have gotten much more now. At the deadline the Astros, I believe, could have gotten a good to very good SP prospect (like a Clay Bucholz) because at the time he was hot, and teams were desperate. Yet, Law is wrong. Lidge was not returning to the player he was in ’04-’05, no matter what his stats are. Most of his good stats and good outings occured when he was not a closer and was working 6-7-8 innings. As a closer he was horrendous, again. He blew eight saves in I believe 28 chances, which is terrible. He actually had a better save conversion rate in ’06. He was just not mentally right for the closer’s role anymore. He could be a valuable reliever for Philly, but not as a closer.

  4. Steve Schramm says:

    Good conversation; many interesting points raised here. It’s pretty clear that this trade was made with more trades in mind. Let’s wait and see what other moves he makes so we know the package he puts in place. This trade probably shouldn’t be judged in isolation; let’s see who’s in the 40 chairs when the music stops.

  5. Lisa Gray says:

    i’m actually amazed how many people in the houston area in the media think this was a GREAT trade.
    of course, there are a WHOLE lot of people who really truly think that willy taveras is a superstar and trading him was one of the worst astros trades evah
    IF he’s gonna be a leadoff guy he’s gotta get ON. he did steal a lot of bases last year, true, but a lot of those were in pinch running situations. unfortunately, i have defense stats only for a few innings in center, but i seriously doubt he’ll be SUCH an upgrade over pence that it was worth getting rid of luke scott.
    i can’t just CAN’T understand how bourne is different or better than anderson let alone luke scott
    and i agree with daniel that we probably could have gotten a lot more for him last july – no WAY would the sox have gotten rid of buchholz – cmon dude.
    but in case you forgot, he went back to closing at the end of the year and in case you forgot, his knee WAS bothering him i don’t care WHAT mr macho sez – he was limping
    and yeh he WILL give up homers in CBP bcause you’d have to have a groundball closer to not have that problem. but philly KNEW that before they took him and heck billy wagner gave up more than a few homers there too.

  6. Jon Burkett says:

    I’m from philly. i watched Bourn up close and the guy gets on and runs the bases. He’s probably more of a corner outfielder than center, but he was the leadoff guy of the future. His on base will be around 36-38%. That, and him being from Houston, are the reasons people feel that giving him up was a good trade. He will be much better than Tavares, although I’m not sure that’s really saying a whole lot.

  7. JDolla$ says:

    I agree with Lisa – its puzzling why you trade your closer, and the only dominant pitcher in your entire bullpen, for a guy who is not much different than a young player already in your system. Now you have to go sign a closer, which unless you’re going to try to pull a “Joel Pineiro” make-a-closer-out-of-a-failed-starter project (and you saw how well that worked out for the Sox), is going to be really really expensive.
    And speaking of blown saves, you guys think that Coco Cordero is going to be the answer for terror-free 9th innings? Think again. He goes wild frequently, always seems to pitch with men on base, and gives up a lot of taters for a closer. Granted, Lidge wasn’t himself over large parts of the last 2 years, but Cordero is just more of the same.
    I think it was a bad trade for the Astros, but since I’m a Rangers fan (I know, that’s pathetic) I’m hoping that JD can figure out how to wrench Josh Anderson away from you guys for a second-tier prospect. We need a CF, and he’s at least as good as David DeJesus. He might even be as good as Willy T. was during his rookie season.
    So, the Astros have gone from World Series magic to utter ruin in the short span of 2 years. How the hell did they pull that off?
    Answer: ownership!

  8. Austin says:

    Law is also wrong about the success of slap-and-run hitters. Now, I’m not a HUGE fan of that kind of baseball, but to say that Ichiro is the only one who’s done it to success in recent years is ridiculous. Kenny Lofton, Willy Taveras, Juan Pierre, and to a lesser extent other guys like Rafael Furcal, Jose Reyes and Hanley Ramirez, just to name a few, have had moderate to great success as slap-and-run hitters. I don’t know why he thinks a slap-and-run hitter couldn’t make it as a major leaguer.

  9. Austin says:

    How about Scott Podsednik as another example? I really don’t know why Law said that. You can have your stance on the value of slap-and-run hitters, but to act like they no longer have value in the game or that nobody has made success in recent years of that ability is just stupid.

  10. Bourn played in 105 games most likely coming in as a pinch runner quite often, which explains the high runs scored and SB totals just judging by PA’s. Looking at his minor league track record, though, 15 doubles and 15 triples isn’t out of the question for a full season.

  11. JDolla$ says:

    A few thoughts:
    1. I wouldn’t count on it that the Disastros are going to save the Lidge money ($7 mil, to quote you) and just go with what they have in the late innings. All signs point to them going after Cordero or Linebrink – or maybe both – with a serious offer. Linebrink’s going to go for closer money (5-7 mil), and Cordero might get *more* than what we paid Lidge. How is that saving money?
    2. I don’t think the Stros were ever serious about putting a lot of cash into another FA outfielder – they have too many other holes to fill on this club that has zero depth.
    3. I guess Anderson is trade fodder – either that or he’s the 4th OF – and he might get you something. He’s not going to get you Bedard, though – or Kazmir. Those guys are not going anywhere unless there’s a premium pitching prospect involved. For instance, someone like Kershaw in the Dodgers organization. Or Bucholtz or Phil Hughes.
    4. And, how much are they going to get for Scott? Aren’t they going to run into this obvious question – “If Scott is worth so much, why did your organization give up on him after only a year and a half?” He is either going to be a bench player for the Stros (see Jason Lane), or the poster boy for the “sell low” trade.
    5. Aren’t we jumping the gun with Bourn a bit? He hasn’t proven anything yet – except that he can steal bases and that he can hit for a decent average in a hundred or so at bats. I’m skeptical until I see some hard evidence.
    The only good thing in this trade, imho, is that it does address those ugly rumors that Astros management avoids African-American ballplayers because it thinks they are “thugs.” However, if that was the motivation behind the trade – that’s pretty damned stupid.

  12. JDolla$ says:

    I also think Law is right when he says that Wade acted too hastily and thus failed to get the best value for his #1 trade commodity. With so many teams looking for closers and really only 2 or 3 decent guys available in free agency, I have to believe that the Astros could have gotten more for Lidge than Bourn.
    Last year’s trade deadline deal between Texas and Boston was a good example of how to go about things. About 5 teams wanted Gagne, and JD hung onto him until the very last minute and was able to get a ml-ready starter, a ml-ready 4th OF, and a premium, A+ OF prospect (Angle Beltre) for Gagne.
    And Lidge is WAY better than Gagne, so presumably Lidge could have brought in *more* than what Gagne brought in.
    Face it, Wade screwed up.

  13. Austin says:

    First of all, Stephen, I didn’t totally get your point with bringing up Qualls being our best reliever, but he’s NOT a closer. He’s got good stuff, he’s a great 7th or 8th inning guy, but he is not a closer. Remember the grand slams to Joe Crede? That’s just the tip of the ice berg when you look at close chances he’s blown late. People just don’t remember those as much because a walk off homer or a ninth inning meltdown is so much more dramatic than a 7th inning beatdown that ignites a comeback. I like Qualls, but I like him in his current role.
    And I hope you’re not honestly advocating a trade of Scott, Anderson AND Patton for Beddard. Don’t get me wrong, Beddard is a nice player, but if the Astros make that trade, they’ll be getting robbed blind. That would be a HORRIBLE trade.

  14. Austin says:

    JDolla, you’re right about that Gagne trade, by the way. I still can’t believe how the Red Sox sold out for a guy that ended up being totally inconsequential to their Championship. They gave up way too much for him.

  15. Kevin Bradshaw says:

    As long as Josh Andersen isn’t on this team I’ll be happy. He’s pathetic. Can’t hit, can’t catch, stolen base % is awful, all at AAA.
    I was fine w/ the outfield. It was an outfield that, when Luke Scott actually played, was pretty productive. How much better was Lee? Barely, I mean a run or two better barely. Scott will be 30. He’s one of my favorite players, but baseball IS onomics. And if they hadn’t made this trade they’d have blown millions on a 30+ CF who can barely tow a league average OBP.
    I didn’t see Lidge back after ’07 anyway.
    Bourn isn’t another Taveras. He can get on base, as a tad more pop, and can actually run the bases. They’re throwing away a cheap Luke Scott. Funny, this makes the Lee signing look even worse (if possible!),being that Scott is nearly as productive. In other words, mixed feelings, but I lean towards Mr. Silver’s take.

  16. JDolla$ says:

    I’m not one of those Scott haters – he’s not a bad player. But Lee hit .300 with 30 hrs and 100+ rbi. He led the league in rbi for much of the season – so it seems strange to say that Scott and Lee are about the “same player.”
    At least if you are talking about offense, which presumably you are.
    I’m curious about your take on Anderson. Have you seen him play? I haven’t – I’m just going by his stats. Is he really that bad of a fielder? You said he can’t hit, but he did hit for average both for the Stros and in AAA. Just curious what you can tell me of him, since I’m from Dallas and I didn’t get to see the Stros play much last fall.

  17. Steve Schramm says:

    Watching Anderson doesn’t really help. Sure, I watched every ML at bat. But he wasn’t facing very good pitching, no one had a book on him, and most games didn’t matter. Once Major League pitchers have video on a hitter, they can shut a hitter down. And that’s when we find out whether a hitter is the real deal — they have to adjust to the adjustments, and that cycle continues. So it’s way too early to conclude anything about Anderson other than he hit well for 75 plate appearances in September. And that’s too small a sample size to say anything else. He’s 25, so he’ll be inexpensive and under out control for a while. He’s got some trade value, but it’s speculative. Let’s see what Wade does.

  18. Lisa Gray says:

    several things
    1 – yes lidge WILL cost 7 mill or so, but a FA closer will cost even more AND will have to be signed for 3-5 years. therefore that move is NOT saving any money
    2- the Organizations is impressed with cordero because he always shut the astros down
    3 – michael bourn only had 52 more PA than josh anderson and why anythinks he is going to have an OBP of 380 i do NOT get. ML pitchers are going to adjust to bourn as he becomes a full time starter instead of a PH/PR
    - we didn’t NEED to get bourn when we ALREADY had anderson so keeping wade from wasting 10-12 mill a year for 5 years on a FA CF isn’t really relevant
    4 – again, the point about lidge was NOT that i especially wanted to keep him, it was that he SHOULD have gotten more in a trade.
    5 – scott + anderson + patton is most DEFINITELY not enough to get ace pitchers like bedard or kazmir let’s get real here.
    6 – there is no way in HECK that bourn + pence will create as many runs as scott + pence. if you really think there is, please, show some figures and you can throw in defense too.

  19. Austin says:

    JDolla – no, Anderson is not that bad of a fielder. I watched him all the time down here in Round Rock. He’s actually a very talented fielder. Better than anything else we have out there, better BY FAR than Lee and Scott. Kevin doesn’t know what he’s talking about when he disses Anderson’s defense. He’s towing the Astros’ front office line, and that’s a really bad line to be towing. You have to remember – this is the same front office that thought Jennings was a number 2 starter, and that Jennings and Woody would be suitable replacements for Clemens and Pettitte.

  20. Daniel says:

    I have to agree Bourn is definetely less than what Lidge WAS worth (Lisa: Lidge and Loretta to Boston for Bucholz was being tossed around here in New England during the deadline), but Wade could not have gotten too much more now. Bourn, I believe, as do the guys from Baseball America and Baseball Prospectus, will be better than Taveras, and Anderson. It’s strange to see the Baseball Prospectus believes that Houston got the better end of it, and I guess that’s true if Lidge bolts after a year, but hopefully they’re right (they usually are). Geary is better than tossing Borkowski and Moehler out there in the 6th, and this Costanzo guy obviously has major holes, but his power is at the very least intriguing. Here’s hoping this is just a move to free up cap space, and to us it wisely, even if that means standing pat this year, and opening the wallet up next year. If it is, I believe this could be a good move. It’s also interesting to note most of the Philly area dislikes this trade too.

  21. Lisa Gray says:

    my DOG is a better fielder than lee. but anderson looked VERY good to me from what i saw – excellent instincts. and yeh, the FO was saying last july about how towles was so substandard and was lousy with umps, his defense, his offense, etc. and yeh, 2/3 of the FO is still the same. i SERIOUSLY doubt that getting either jennings or woody was purpura’s idea. it smells like drayton
    daniel -
    all the lidge for buchholz talk was chat boards…
    and heck – ANDERSON is better than taveras. i’m not real too much of a willy fan and never understood all the willy adoration. then again i do NOT understand how any female could possibly think dane cook is either kewl or HOT. shudder.
    bpro is only thinking of getting rid of 6-7 mill salary and they are NOT considering the fact that lidge will probably be replaced with someone more expensive and the astros will lose scott’s bat.
    actually i am pretty surprised that philly fans are not liking this trade – it’s not like geary is anything but bullpen filler and bourn was not going to beat out victorino for center if they let rowand go. lidge is most definitely better than what is left of tom gordon
    and bruntlett i would think is EXACTLY what philly fans would like – a gritty grinder kind of guy

  22. Daniel says:

    You brought up the fact that the Phillies get a Starter basically for free because they can turn Myers into a starter, but Myers, I’ve heard and read, hates the idea of going back to being a starter, and loved the closer’s role. I’m not so sure that Myers will go back to the starters role, and either way he, an eccentric, strange personality anyway, will be quite upset with the team. I don’t believe the Phillies benefit that much for the trade. Bourn probably would have started Opening Day, if Rowand leaves. It would have been Burrell, Victorino and Bourn. Also, is it totally necessary to go out and buy a expensive closer? Closer’s are people that can be made in the farm system (see Oakland A’s = first Isringhausen, then Koch, then Foulke then Street). Is Sarfarte or another one of the kids, or god forbid Octavio Dotel really that bad of an option that Cordero is necessary?
    Also, I’m not giving up on the fact that Bucholz could of been had. Sports talk radio in New England was fuming that the Sox might let Bucholz go. And if Red Sox Nation is good for anything, it is that they are serious about their baseball people. They would not ahve been making this up. Anyway, it’s a moot point now. Maybe a Carlos Gomez from the Mets was a more viable deadline option.

  23. Lisa Gray says:

    myers might could hate the idea of going back to starting – or say he hates it, but he is significantly more valuable as the ace than the closer. and he’s under team control, so what can he do? he’s a guy who repeatedly punched his 120 lb wife in the face in public, so i wouldn’t call him “eccentric” – i’d call him a *(%^&! psychopath. but hey, he CAN pitch
    i don’t think it is necessary to go buy an expensive closer – but i have this bad BAD feeling that is what wade is going to do. we could try out a whole LOT of guys. we already tried dotel as a closer and so did the A’s and dotel wasn’t a good closer. good set-up man, not a closer. who knows about sarfate?
    as for the buchholz stuff, well, it’s not like theo is my best friend or anything, but i did hear tell from a few people who know a few people that it was ALL rumor and there was nothing to it. which i believe. because buchholz even then was a REAL prize for just lidge
    carlos gomez would have been a better deal than bourn

  24. Stephen says:

    Note that the Davenport Translations take into account park factors in making the translation to a neutral Major League. So that is factored the irrational fear you have of Mike Constanzo.
    Also, please read Nate Silver’s update of the trade analysis to better come to terms by what it means to have acquired the players we did in implicit terms (especially his treatment of talking about A-Rod).
    Your fear/disdain for Lidge being replaced by someone more expensive than him discounts the fact that this was going to be an inevitability for the Astros in exactly 362 days anyhow. Further, who is to say that the Astros will really pony up the cash for any of the closer’s on the market. Coco, Linebrink, and Rivera (IF he declines the Yank’s offer) are mostly likely going to wait to sign late, thus bidding up their price as the clock ticks. I imagine, Ed Wade (a man who is seemingly very intelligent despite your reservations to that fact) will more than likely not be hamstrung by waiting for closers to sign in January and probably have pursued other upgrades: Silva, Castillo, etc. To frame all of this in the bigger picture: Remember, today is Nov. 10, 2007 and there is plenty of time left in this off-season, so before you finish the crucification of Ed Wade, pause, consider EVERYTHING that this trade means, and please, calm down.
    PS. To the Luke Scott won’t command much in return people, please look at his home/away split and then try to explain to me how he doesn’t command much in trade value.

  25. Evan says:

    Trading Anderson, Scott and Patton for Bedard would be a steal for the Astros. He was the best pitcher in the majors before his injury in late August. Look at the stats. His Ks/9 was above 11! His ERA was incredible considering he plays in the AL East. Trading those guys for Bedard would be nothing short of grand larceny on the part of Ed Wade.
    As to your point about Chad Qualls, why would you cite his HR given up against the White Sox as the foundation for your argument that he would not be a viable option as our 2008 closer? I recall that our 2007 closer gave up not one, but two game winning hits in the World Series. One of which was to man who hadn’t hit a homer in over a year (Scott Podsednik). Qualls has the stuff, and has better control than Lidge. It’s possible to be a good closer without throwing 98 (which Brad does not even get up to anymore.)
    For the most part, I can’t understand why everyone here is of the belief that Brad Lidge will be missed. This year, everyone wanted this man hung, and now, we’re lamenting his loss. Ed Wade freed up a lot of money by making this trade, and gave us our CF of the future. Lidge wouldn’t have stuck around for another year, and the Astros wouldn’t have ponied up the dough, regardless. He wore out his welcome. Plain and simple.

  26. Kevin Bradshaw says:

    I meant Scott and Lee posted comparable OBP and SLG.
    Everything I said about Andersen was based his Minor league numbers, which, besides the BA were god awful- if not worse. On his defense, I’m just repeating what I’ve read. Best taken w/ a grain of salt.
    Bourn won’t post an .380 OBP- beyond a lucky season w/ an inflated BABIP. But he should out pace both Taveras (non-Coors version) and Andersen. Andersen isn’t a prospect. He couldn’t get on base in the minors. I think they’re facing reality. I prefer the ’07 outfield, but Tal Smith is running the team and in his senility has become obsessed w/ speed and contact. I think the ’08 outfield will produce significantly less than ’07. Anyone who thinks otherwise has no idea how runs are scored. Hint, hint, old timers, it ain’t SB.
    That being said, I’ll bet the farm Bourn is a better hitter than Taveras and Andersen over the long run.
    A vision of ineptitude: http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/A/Josh-Anderson.shtml
    Notice his .325 OBP and .341 SLG at AAA Round Rock!

  27. Lisa Gray says:

    ok – one more time about lidge -
    the problem i have is what wade got for him, which, in my opinion, was a very poor haul. again, considering both bats and gloves, i can not find any justification for saying that bourn + pence is superior to pence + scott.
    i’ve checked out both bourn’s and anderson’s minor league stats – they both had an average of around 280-290 with OBP of 340 – and bourn had a slightly higher SLG, but nothing to write home about
    i do not have a bpro subscription and can’t read the update you are referring to. however, i DO know that davenport translations are very rough and are less accurate for high strikeout high power guys. the problem with costanzo is that he is a third baseman
    who can’t play 3rd worth spit and even if he did have a .262 EqA, he would play 3rd even worse in the majors – no one improves his glove going up the scale – he would have to be moved from 3rd to 1st or left. and we don’t have any space there. of course, he COULD be traded. i know you will probably bring up ryan braun, who makes lamb look like brooks robinson at third, but costanzo is no braun with the bat. you have to hit like braun to compensate for giving up so many runs with the glove
    i don;t consider carlos silva a very good ML pitcher, especially not for the salary he is going to command. nor do i consider luis castillo a particularly good second baseman AND he has been hurt considerably in the past 2 years and has lost most of his speed and glove. those are NOT upgrades, as afar as I’m concerned.
    as for wade and relievers, well, i sure can look at his track record with philly – and he liked to spend a LOT of money on expensive, not particularly good middle relievers. which is why i wouldn’t be surprised if he did the same thing here.
    i haven’t seen any evidence of intelligence.
    then again, it’s very amusing to me how many people can’t wait to get rid of adam everett because he’s all glove, but think it is just great to get rid of an 858 OPS RF with a very good arm and glove and replace him with a guy who runs fast and won’t have over a 700 OPS.
    the reason i don’t think that luke scott will get very much in return is that OBVIOUSLY the astros don’t think very much of him and you don’t ask much for what you think is worthless. i think that luke should be the regular RF and that some team, not as stupid as the astros, will pick him up, play him full time, and he’ll create 40 runs a year. or more.

    a bedard trade? well, that is, IF the orioles would trade someone so valuable for less than what they could get elsewhere. but even as good as bedard is, it would still be a bad trade for the astros. why? ignoring anderson and scott, who are basically worthless to the astros, it is 6 years of patton, projected to be a #3, for 2 very expensive years of bedard. what for? this is going to be a mediocre team for quite a while. why get rid of 6 years for 2? IF bedard would be the difference between winning and losing these next 2 years, that would be one thing. but he’s not. so therefore, i wouldn’t agree that it would be a good trade.
    i’m not exactly a willy luuuvvver, so i don’t think it would be real too hard to create more runs than he does. and i agree with you about tal. even if i DO think that a fielder who is as substandard as loretta or lamb will give up waaaaaayyyy too many runs, and in loretta’s case, more than they create with the bat.
    too many astros fans look ONLY at batting average, but i’m not one of em…

  28. Evan says:

    Are you sure about Bedard costing too much over the next two years? Maybe you should look up his numbers and then compare them to the production a team could get out of him. Considering the likes of Kevin Millwood are making upwards of 11 million per season, I think Bedard’s current salary wouldn’t be too difficult to stomach. True, the Astros could never get him, as we have little to offer to a rebuilding team, but it is fun to dream.

  29. Stephen says:

    Wow, Micheal Bourn can’t post over a .700 OPS, that’s news to me? If I can still read, I think he stat line says differently. Because you don’t have access to his PECOTA, I’ll provide it: It conservatively calls for .767OPS — I’ll leave you to the subtraction, I believe you end up with a negative number, indicating hyperbole on your part. Since you read Between the Numbers I’m sure you recall the section on Old Player Skill sets **cough**Mo Ensberg, J. Lane, and Luke Scott** and new player skill sets **cough**Bourn, Pence**
    Also, it’s pretty ballsy of you discount the re-updated DT’s that no one outside of BP has any real knowledge of or even the old DT’s for that matter in favor of your boys over on the Sabermetrics blog, opinons for a forum??? Really a forum, that’s credible HOW? The question you have to in honesty ask your self is, did Ed Wade build the current Philly Franchise? Oh wait, he did and they’re better than we are. Also, stop assuming what I’d throw back at you. Though, as I tried to bring up ago some months ago, Adam Everett doesn’t toe the line when you play offense and defensive (by my calculations) but neither you nor the boys at the Sabermetrics blog get back to me on that.
    Finally, if I were 23 years of age, which I just below, I sure wouldn’t want some to tell me that the ability I possessed currently was the ability I would possess for the rest of my life. If I knew right now that I would never progress at all, I’d be pretty depressed. Thankfully of Constanzo at least, baseball players peak in their late 20′s…phew.
    Sometimes, you have to have faith. This trade is makes us a helluva better ball club than we were three days ago. And the absolute best part is, we’re still not through building or tinkering. To support the faith and really just to calm you down:
    SUPERVORP (meaning, defense, and running counts) 2008 Projections:
    Luke Scott: 12.2
    Michael Bourn: 11.7
    GOOD LORD, we’re doomed…nope. Hunter Pence gets to play RF instead of CF, the gains from his defense (Uh, Oh, I’m taking into account defense, that’s a deviation from your preconceived bias of me) Will more than out way the .5 VORP.

  30. Stephen says:

    Because it reads a bit unclear: My rant about the forum in the DT’s paragraph is me calling you out on quoting someone from a forum as though they were authoritative on something other than trolling a forum. So when you are going to discount Mike Constanzo’s ability, why don’t we just use…facts? Instead of Here-say and conjecture, which from the Simpson’s, we all know is inadmisable.

  31. Lisa Gray says:

    i guess i am not clear about what i mean about cost
    here is what i am trying to say -
    2 years of bedard for 6 years of patton
    why is this something you would want to do? suppose that bedard was the best pitcher in baseball. so what? we’d have 2 good starters, any number of crummy starters and qualls, a decent reliever and, well, judging by what ed wade has done in the past, a large number of mediocre, expensive relievers.
    we’ll have bourn, everett, wiggy and whoever we put at second who will be at best, a zero RCAA. seeing as how we got rid of good offensive prodiction from scott. in other words, offense will be lance and pence and lee again. in otherwords, maybe middle of the NL in RC.
    summary – patton is the only actually GOOD young pitcher we have and i sure don’t see anyone who looks like anything above league average in the minors. we have him for 6 years and we’re not near any championship. so what is the point of trading him for a 2 year pitcher no matter how good he is or what he costs?

  32. Lisa Gray says:

    i have a VERY hard time believing that the bpro guys think that the LOWEST percentile OPS that bourn will have is 767. this means that the 50% forecast must be somewhere in the neighborhood of 800. it doesn’t make sense that they think that he will produce an OPS that is significantly higher than his minor league numbers as he was not exactly in extreme pitchers’ parks
    and since he only has 130 ML AB, they must be using some MLE and i’ve never heard of MLE adjusting upward over 100 OPS points, not by any system that tries to predict ML numbers from minor league ones.
    Dan Szymborski’s ZIPS has his line at .245/.306/.325 and of course that was for a predicted 458 AB. (which is where i got the not over 700 number.)
    As dan sez, “That leaves Bourn, who played pretty well in limited playing time for the Phillies in 2007. Unfortunately, in more extended playing time, he was quite a bit less inspiring before 2007, with the exception of an excellent full-season debut in 2004. It’s still premature to think that he can really better than a 5th outfielder and if the Astros were run by someone like Ed Wade, there would be a real chance that Bourn would interfere with the superior Lee-Pence-Scott outfield alignment. Uh-oh… ”
    i flatter myself that dan has been reading my blog…
    oh – and how did ed wade build the philly franchise?
    answer -
    mike arbuckle (genius behind the throne)
    and i am not a fan of vorp because there is no such thing as a replacement player and because i don’t respect the defense stats of bpro.
    i think you would be very hard pressed to find anyone to agree that FRAA is a good evaluator of defense.
    how many guys who made 30 errors at 3rd in A-ball, then 34 errors at 3rd in AA actually improved their fielding and were at least league average at third with the glove in the majors? i can’t find any because guys like that are moved to first or left, but hey, i agree that youneverknow… and sometimes high strikeout guys and guys who have a hard time hitting breaking stuff can learn to be more selective and learn to hit breaking stuff, true.
    - but i am STILL not clear why you think this trade makes us a MUCH better team, or why you think that the defense will be significantly improved – meaning, i don’t get how that translates into runs created…
    we’ll do adam everett later – i thought i’d already been thru the runs saved/runs created discussion…

  33. Stephen says:

    Where did I bring up Constanzo defense? Please take throughly read and evaluate my arguments before you respond with your canned answer. As for ZIPS, I believe that BP showed that it was a second-tier projection system, but discredit a player based on them.

  34. Stephen says:

    Because my ire for you, in this situation, has been stoked so great, I scoured the internet for Bourn projections….no one has him getting on base less than a .340 clip (CHONE, MARCEL, PECOTA…Bill James himself) or have an OPS of less than .750 So really, how much stock are you going to put into ZIPS, he has an above average K/BB, BB% ect. What makes him regress to Adam Everett-esque offensive capabilities??? Please just explain that. Stop deflecting the conversation to stuff I am not asking about or concerned with (namely Constanzo’s defense…seriously, when did I talk about it). Your argument style is interesting because you don’t seem to answer anything, you utilize hyperbole, and then you change the subject. Just tell me, what about Michael Bourn, in your expert opinion, makes him a guy who will hit at or around .300 OBP and less than .700 OPS.
    Finally, come August 2008, if Michael Bourn is not playing up to .340 and .750, I will eat my Astros hat, film it, and you can post it on your blog. Because saying that the league will adjust to him is what everyone hurled at Pence, but like a professional baseball player, he worked and made his adjustment. Which the virtue of being a young player…is that you are making a character assassination at Bourn?

  35. JDolla$ says:

    Jeez, Stephen. Why are you so worked up about the Michael Bourn thing? Are you his agent or something? Or his dad? The guy has had 127 major league at bats. That’s it – 127. NO ONE knows anything yet about what kind of hitter he will be. So it’s stupid for you to be getting so upset because people don’t agree with your projections, or with anyone’s projections, for that matter. It’s like you getting upset because people don’t agree that x candidate will win the election next year. Who the hell knows?
    Give it a friggin’ rest.

  36. Stephen says:

    My problem is with Lisa’s unwarranted skepticism. That’s all I am asking her to explain, if she’d just give me a real reason why she feels that he’ll be so bad, I’ll give it a rest. I feel this way, because I thought this was a trade we should have made at the deadline, because Bourn is what we need — a good OBP guy to lead off and help make things happen and can push Pence to RF, giving us a defensive tandem that can help into Lee’s defensive short-comings. Lisa harps and calls everyone dumb because they don’t pay attention to defense and now she is ALLLL over Scott who is an above-average, but certainly not great offensive player, in favor of the average bat and GREAT defense.

  37. Lisa Gray says:

    ok stephen
    will have new entry on bourn tomorrow and we’ll go from there

  38. Michael says:

    It is not uncommon at all for infielders’ fielding numbers (esp. errors) to improve as they move up the ladder. For one thing, the improvement in the fielding surfaces can be tremendous.
    Even some major league players make positive strides in their defensive play AFTER making the leap to the bigs. One player I have in mind as an example is Aramis Ramirez.
    Here’s an interesting article on Costanzo for some further perspective: http://www.baseballamerica.com/blog/prospects/?p=203

  39. Kris says:

    Yes, Luke DOES have good ratings in RF, too bad many people seem to believe – or perceive – just the opposite – (in large part thanks to the spin from the FO)
    He is playing RF & LF in Venezuela, saw that he was 3-4 and 2-4 in games on Fri & Sat.
    His BA is still not high at .242 but he’s brought it up after a slow start, meanwhile he continues to put the power numbers up in 18 games so far for the Magallanes:
    11 R 4 2B 3 HR 12 RBI 12 BB .382 OBP .452 SLG and a .833 OPS
    Luke’s tied for 1st in R, 2nd in XBH, 2nd in RBI’s 2nd in TB
    Amazing how a player can produce like he did this season – and last – and yet be without a starting position today ???
    Meanwhile he’s playing ball while his teammates are at home watching ESPN
    Just boggles the mind that Wade traded Lidge for 3 UNproven commodities and that’s all this trade amounts to. Then to legitimize it all, they rush to anoint Bourn as the NEW CF while relegating Luke to the trash heap.
    We really hope that Luke does get traded now, he’s too talented to sit on the pine

  40. lisa gray says:

    thank you.
    he is supposed to be the starting 3B at AAA this year and that is a great field, so we’ll see.
    the jump in the speed of the batted balls coming at you is from AAA to the ML

  41. lisa gray says:

    i really REALLY hope luke gets traded for a good return. but i am afraid he will be wasted on the bench, where he will stink it up as a pinch hitter, which is something he is lousy at, then the team will release him/trade him for nothing much.
    if michael bourn turns into kenny lofton, well, that’s good. but we should STILL get something for luke.

  42. Chris Rosenberger says:

    Have you heard or read anything from Larry Dierker regarding our now 4th outfielder? You know, that guy that has been our 3rd to 4th best offensive player – but looks to not see much playing time next year. Well, anyway, he suggested trying to find out if Scott can play 3rd base – at least as a platoon option.
    I think an idea like that – if Scott could play at least as well as Lamb and Wigginton – would be the best 3rd base option. Even if he didn’t take over on a full time basis, Scott can play the corner outfield positions well, and can play in Center in a Pinch (not very well at all though) – he could platoon with Wigginton and be in a 4th outfielder type of position when needed.

  43. Lisa Gray says:

    i do remember reading that entry from larry. and it isn’t necesarily a BAD idea. but the baseballs come at you very fast when you are at third and i’m not sure if, at age 29, luke could make that adjustment. best i know, he’s playing OF in the venezuelan league right now.
    denny walling made the change at age 30, so i guess luke could too.
    but i still think that luke would be most valuable in a trade as he is a lousy pinch hitter – OPS+ under 500 – and i seriously doubt he’d see much playing time.
    i still do NOT understand why an 858 OPS from a RF is considered insufficient – especially as he’s being replaced with an OF whose OPS is projected to be 700 something (ok now stephen, is THAT ok?)
    There are only 4 NL RF with at least 400 PA who had a higher OPS – and luke’s would have been higher if he hadn’t been sent up to PH

  44. Austin says:

    Evan -
    I was only citing those homeruns as the most striking examples of his propensity to give up homeruns in key situations. Also pointing them out because people tend to forget homeruns by middle relievers that don’t instantly ruin the game. EVERYONE remembers the homerun by Podsednik, but not everyone remembers the grand slam by Crede that put the game in reach, and not everyone remembers the exact same play happening when we subsequently faces the White Sox in the regular season.
    I also said that they were just a couple of examples. They’ve tried Qualls as a closer, and he simply is not a closer. He’s a setup man. And I’m with Lisa in saying that it’s not that I miss Lidge so much, it’s that I don’t think we got the best value we could for him, and I don’t think Wade shopped him as much as he could have. He seemed to just want to work out a deal with his old club as quickly as possible.

  45. [...] at Astros Dugout discusses the (relatively) recent trade with Philadelphia that netted Michael Bourn. astros, baseball, cubs, john russell, mlb, pirates, reds, scott [...]